An interview with the Jewish thinker and writer Avi Shlaim

(“Avi Shlaim” sees a malicious precedent behind Israel’s actions in Gaza)

An interview with the Jewish thinker and writer Avi Shlaim, one of the most prominent group of “New Jewish Historians”

The interview was conducted by Stuart Miller 

Avi Shlaim was born in Baghdad - author of “Collusion Across the Jordan”; "War and Peace in the Middle East"; and the Iron Wall,” but he fled to Israel with his family as a result of the persecution that escalated after 1948. He later moved to England, where he has lived and taught for more than half a century. Shlaim, 78 years old, interviewed us via video technology from his home in England, on the current war as well as his views on it occurring as a result of the past. We have edited this interview for length and clarity.

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Q-The history of this land is torn between two contradictory narratives, Israeli and Palestinian. What can we say, definitively, about what happened in 1948?

C- Following the 1948 war, the two victorious teams were Israel, which expanded its territory beyond the borders stipulated in the United Nations partition plan for Palestine, and King Abdullah of Jordan, whose army seized the West Bank (which Israel would occupy in 1967), which had been It is supposed to form the heart of the Palestinian state based on the aforementioned United Nations plan. As for the losing team, they were 750,000 Palestinians - more than half the population - who became refugees during the Nakba. These are the true roots of the current conflict.

Q-Noam Chomsky once said that settler colonialism is the most extreme and evil form of imperialism. The Palestinians have had the misfortune of being the recipients of both Zionist settler colonialism and Western imperialism. British first, then American. Since its founding, the goal of the Zionist movement was to establish a Jewish state on the largest possible area of land, with the smallest possible number of Arabs within its borders.

Do Israelis and Palestinians view the current war based on this context?

A- Netanyahu said that we are fighting a “second war of independence.” No one threatens Israel's independence or existence today, so why is it called the Second War of Independence? I think there is a sinister reason behind this - the first war of independence was associated with the Nakba, and today there are indications in the leaked documents that the Israeli government is planning a second mass expulsion (from Gaza). What we learn from history is that when Israel launches a campaign of ethnic cleansing as it did in 1948, it will not allow Arabs to return to their homes. I believe that America bears largely responsibility for what we have reached today because of its blind support for Israel, which continues despite the atrocities the latter is committing in Gaza.

Q-But Hamas spoke of its intention to maintain a permanent state of war. Doesn't this constitute a challenge to Israel's independence or existence?

C- People forget that Hamas won fair and free elections in 2006, not only in Gaza, but also in the West Bank. It formed a government, but Israel refused to recognize it, as did the United States, the United Kingdom, and the European Union. Israel launched an economic war with the aim of undermining the Hamas government, and its European and American allies joined in, further drowning in their eternal shame. This is one of many examples of the utter hypocrisy of Western powers. They say they believe in democracy, and here you have a shining example of Arab democracy on the ground, but the Western allies refused to acknowledge its outcome because the Palestinian people chose the wrong group of people.

Q-The “New Historians” movement sought to break free from old ideas regarding the events of 1948. What misconceptions still persist today?

C- The main misconception is that Hamas is the obstacle to peace. The movement has a horrific charter and an extremist program but, after coming to power, it toned down its program and offered Israel a long-term ceasefire (as part of broader negotiations on the ground and other issues in 2006 and again in 2015). However, Israel refused. So this is a misconception; Israel desires peace while Hamas prevents it from being achieved. Israel is the obstacle to peace.

Another misconception is that Israel wanted a two-state solution. This is complete nonsense! It is now fashionable to say that the two-state solution is dead because of things like Israeli settlements in the West Bank, but I say that the two-state solution was never born; Since 1967, no Israeli government has proposed a two-state solution in a form acceptable to even the most moderate Palestinian leaders, and no American government has ever truly pressured Israel for a two-state solution.

Q-It is clear that you have your firm conviction. In light of this violent and intertwined history, and the current war, can any journalist or historian be close to objectivity?

C- It is very difficult for a person to be objective because it is a highly emotional issue, and emotions are running high now on both sides. But researchers can look at this conflict somewhat objectively. Rashid Khalidi is a professor at Columbia University, as well as the most prominent Palestinian historian of the conflict, and I do not see that we are much different in principle. We both consider that the essence of the conflict is the Zionist settler-colonial movement.

Q- In your book, “The Iron Wall,” you focused on Israel’s insistence on preventing it. How do Hamas attacks affect this perception within Israel?

C- Israel thought itself invincible, and Netanyahu believed “that we can do whatever we want in the West Bank, manage the situation in Gaza, and achieve peace with the Arab countries without having to make any concessions to the Palestinians.” But on October 7, this policy collapsed overnight. Israeli society as a whole is still amazed by this experience. It was a truly shocking experience. Today, the Israelis are no longer able to think balanced. They want the government to remove Hamas permanently. But eliminating Hamas is not possible. Hamas is not a military organization. It is a social movement, and part of the fabric of Palestinian society.

Q-Do you see any possibility of a suitable solution?

A-I wish I were able to see a light at the end of this tunnel, but I am extremely pessimistic.